Back in the early 60’s John Popp was just returning from
the war. After moving to Manitowoc,
Wisconsin his brother in-law got him a job at an engineering company.
John then in the mid 60’s got married and had one child.
After getting a divorce, he then quit his engineering job and became a
truck driver.
We’re going to start off with political questions. Did
you support a political candidate in the election of 1960?
No, I really didn’t because in 1960 I believe I was still
in Germany in the Army. I did have
some vague recollection of Kennedy, but I didn’t vote in the election.
I remember when he was elected president.
I was too young, and I wasn’t into politics.
I think at that time you had to be 21 to vote.
They hadn’t lowered the voting age yet. It’s 18 now, but I didn’t
do anything about politics. I was
in the army, and I was out of the country. I went over in 1959 but knew that he
had won the election. That’s about all I know about politics at that time.
Did you support a political candidate in 1964?
I wasn’t discharged from the army until 1962.
In 1964 I was already married and living in Manitowoc Wisconsin, so I
didn’t belong to any political party. I didn’t really have any political
views or philosophy at that time. I was just some young fellow struggling to make a go of it in
life. I never voted.
I know that. I didn’t vote. I
can’t even tell you what year I first started voting. It probably was when Ronald Reagan ran. Maybe that’s the first time I voted.
Do you think Kennedy was a good President?
Well, he had a lot of optimism and charisma, and he brought
a sense of pride to the country. And
who knows what would have happened if he would have lived.
Maybe he would have done great things for this country.
His presidency was ended too soon in a tragic way, so we really don’t
know. I do think that he had some good visions.
We’ll never know that because he didn’t live long enough.
He never filled his first term. It
was during the Cold War. What I can
remember about him then is I was in the army, and when the Cuban Missile Crisis
became an issue John F. Kennedy stood up to Khrushchev.
He would not back down, and I remember all of us troops being put on
alert: packing our bags, rolling up our blankets, all leaves were canceled and
ammunition was issued, and they made us sleep with our clothes on, on the floor.
We were waiting to get called at any second if there was a war, but then
Khrushchev backed down, and the crisis was ended peacefully.
In that regard he may have saved the world from a nuclear catastrophe.
We don’t know, but I think that might have been the case.
Do you remember anything about the radical politics of the
New Left, the SDS or the weatherman?
Yes, I remember them.
I think that started sometime in the 60’s too. It started, I believe, on college campuses.
Their motto was… what was their motto,
“Drop out and do drugs,” and whatever like that and they were
protesting the Vietnam War. In 1961
and 1962 they were asking for volunteers at that time to go to Vietnam.
They weren’t sending troops, and I think after they started sending
troops and then the media - which was television, really started to cover the
war. It wasn’t like the 2nd world
war, when there was no television to cover it.
The American people saw news every night in their living rooms about boys
being killed, and I think that’s when the radical left really started
protesting the war and demanding that, if drafted, they wouldn’t go.
A lot of them left the country. I
can remember that a lot. And the
riots, protests, and the marches on
campuses. That I can remember.
How did the Cold War impact the 60’s politics?
Well it was a big build up in the military, and it was also
a buildup with Eisenhower. President
Eisenhower at that time, the military industrial complex and our whole society
right now is tied to the military industrial complex in other worlds. A lot of
jobs in this country are making stuff for the military, so a lot of people’s
livelihood is dependent on the military. A
defense plant that is making airplanes, tanks or making whatever for the
military would effect our country greatly.
It played a big part in the advancement of technology in this country and
the lifestyle we live. I mean a lot
of people are dependent on the military and to have a strong military in this
country. If we got rid of the
military or downsized it, where would we have created the jobs for this country?
Now going to lifestyles.
Can you please describe the fashion of the 1960’s in regards to
clothing and appearance? What were other trends of that time period?
Well, probably the biggest trendsetter and the one, who,
well, really started it in the 50’s, was Elvis Presley. With the slicked back
hair and the sideburns, of course that started when I was in high school in the
50’s. But then in the 60’s
after I came back from the army, the lifestyle and the clothes, gosh I can’t
remember. It was white socks, jeans
or slacks, and a shirt. At that
time I was already married and working and trying to support a family. Well of course I didn’t get married until ‘63, but I
didn’t pay too much attention. When you have to put bread on the table you
don’t pay too much attention to the lifestyle in the Hollywood crowd.
I was never into that.
Can you describe your job in the 60’s?
Tell us a story that depicts life in the 60’s.
Well, when I got out of the army in the 60’s I didn’t
know what I was going to do. In fact at one time I thought I was going to
re-enlist and make a career out of the military, but then I got out in June of
1962 and went down to visit my sister who was living in Manitowoc. My brother
in-law’s dad worked at Manitowoc Engineering, and he got me a job right away.
Within two days I was working. So
a week after I was discharged from the army I was already working in a factory
making big, huge cranes. It was
called Manitowoc Engineering, and they built big, huge cranes.
They’re still in business today. Once
I started that and met my wife; then I was kind of locked into a pattern.
You get married you don’t daydream about what you could do. At that
time there was no money for college and I already was 22 years old, so I just
settled into life. Working in a factory and just getting on with life.
Do you remember about your classes and your teachers?
From the 1950’s? Yeah,
I went to high school. I can
remember I went to a one-room schoolhouse from the time I was in first grade
through seventh. One teacher in a
county, one room schoolhouse. Outdoor
toilets with an old wood and coal stove in the winter.
No plumbing, no water, we had an old pump where you got the water from.
There was one teacher to teach all eight grades. I went to school like that for
seven years, and it was quite an experience.
Almost like on the Little House on the Prairie only it wasn’t that
happy. It was a struggle back then,
but we didn’t know it. We all were happy. As
long as we had enough to eat, everything was good.
What were some of the views you had about the opposite sex
during the 60’s?
We didn’t know anything about the opposite sex.
We were naive, they didn’t teach sex education.
I didn’t know anything. I
went to the senior prom, and I remember a girl kissed me for the first time, and
I was so startled and I didn’t know what to do.
I guess you might say, I learned more about sex when I took agriculture
in high school because my agriculture teacher taught about cows and he said,
“You guys are going to learn something about sex.” He says, “Cows are a
lot like women.” That’s what our teacher told us. So there was no other kind
of education. That the whole World War II generation was very conservative, and
sex education wasn’t talked about and it wasn’t taught.
If you did something wrong your mother or father would say, “ Don’t
talk that way! Don’t say that! Don’t ask those questions!”
That’s what we were told, so you didn’t ask questions.
What major differences do you see between teenagers today
and teenagers in the 1960’s?
They don’t have enough to do, no job.
A lot of them don’t have jobs, and I must say a lot of them are
spoiled. They’re given too much;
I mean my dad always told me, “ Work never hurt anybody.”
We were brought up on a farm. We
all had to work. He said, “ You
wanna eat, you’re gonna work.” Well
when you’re growing up, you may be angry at your parents for saying that, but
I tell you, when you get a lot older and the years go by, you will realize how
much your parents loved you, and how much you appreciate them for enrolling the
values of hard work, respect, and not expecting anybody to do anything for you.
You make your own way in life. You
don’t want to be a loafer. That’s
what I got from my parents, and it was worth more than all the gold in Fort
Knox.
What can you tell me about the counter culture in the
60’s?
Well I didn’t really have any experience with it, but
what I had seen on television that’s about all I knew about it.
With the dope, the free sex, what they talked about.
The hippies and Timothy Leary, the dopey out there, that professor or
whatever, he was on the West Coast. Wasn’t
he the one that said, “ Drop in, drop out, and buzz out? Or whatever his
slogan was at the time. They’d do
acid and all that stuff. Well they
thought it was a good thing at the time, but it all came back to haunt them.
General diseases, guys who ruined their lives with dope; it all really came back
to haunt them and I think you look back at it this day.
I don’t think it was a good period for the people that exposed to that
philosophy. Maybe some of them
straightened their lives out. I
didn’t think much of it. I had a
negative view of it. I wasn’t
brought up that way, and I really had no respect for it.
What did you think of their lifestyle?
Well it was foreign to me.
I couldn’t believe it. When
Woodstock took place, which was the big concert, there was sex in public,
smoking dope and living like pigs. They didn’t bathe; it was really foreign to
me. I couldn’t believe it.
I wasn’t brought up that way. All
I know is what I saw on TV and what I read about it.
I never lived it. I really
had no ambition to do it, didn’t care about it. Of course, I was an older
person already. I wasn’t in my teens anymore, and I was already married and
working for a living, so I had different values.
Were you part of the women’s’ liberation movement?
No, I sure wasn’t, and I can understand some of it
because women did not have equal rights when it comes to equal pay or equal job.
Now, maybe it went too far in certain ways where I don’t think women
are capable of doing some jobs as men. Maybe it costs some of their lives
because of it, and I can name two professions.
They are: fire fighters and policemen where they are not physically built
to do it. Some of them may be, but not overall.
But it probably was a good thing because so many more women had to enter
the work force after the 60’s and 70’s.
When the government started throwing money left and right at all kinds of
social programs and higher taxes, both parents had to go to work to make a
living. Then it was a good thing in that sense, but then the families kind of
broke up more. In other words, I guess I’m saying, when I was growing up the
mothers didn’t work. They took
care of the kids at home. It was a
different family structure. The men worked and could make a living, but there
aren’t too many families that can make a living with only one person working
all unless they have a super job.
It seemed that most people in the 60’s were more
conscious of their environment. Is
that true?
No, I don’t know. If one thing, I think that the 60’s
were better. People had more
respect for the environment. I
don’t think people would through their trash and garbage around like you would
see now, like along the highways. People
just chuck it out, throw it out. They don’t care.
Maybe in that way they were more conscious of their environment and,
also, back then the country was not expanding like it is all over now. This state alone there were hardly any private homes built up
on farms, everything was farmland. You
couldn’t drive around and see new homes built up all over like you can now.
So you didn’t worry about cutting a tree down, and as your cities start
expanding, shopping centers and industrial parks were being built.
A lot of that was to create jobs because as the population grows you have
to create jobs for the people. There
is a lot more emphasis on the environment than there was then. It wasn’t thought about much at that time.
One environmental problem was the chemical build up in the fish.
Then there was mercury in the Great Lakes where your big power plants
would discharge waste. It gets into
the fish because they’re in the water, and then if you eat the fish you’re
going to get a buildup of mercury. I can remember at times when they said you
were not suppose to eat fish over a period because of the salmon in Lake
Michigan had mercury in them, and I don’t think people knew about all that and
realized that it was doing harm. At the time factories and stuff were
discharging stuff into your streams, rivers and lakes.
Then when they realized all that through studies, then they started
putting regulations on. So in that
way it was a good thing that we have regulations.
They might be stringent and strict, but if we polluted the water and air
what would happen to mankind eventually. Actually
it’s better now then it was back in maybe the 60’s.
We have cleaner air, our cars are better, we don’t burn coal like we
used to. We used to burn coal, I
mean people had coal stoves. When I
went to China the air was just gray. People used coal over there to burn. I was
in Beijing looking out of my motel room windows.
We never saw the sun. It was
nothing but gray because they were burning coal. It was like a third world country then. This country is much more advanced.
How important was Rock music in the 1960’s
Well that’s still going.
It started in the 1950’s, so I really liked it and listened to records.
I guess Elvis was my all time favorite. I
really didn’t care for some of the Beatles songs, and I can remember
Herman’s Hermits and all those groups, and Dave Clark Five, and what were some
others… Paul Revere and the Riders, I liked some of their music, but not all
of it. I would still say Elvis is
the best.
Did the Beatles have an impact on you?
Not really, I didn’t have long hair like they did, and I
didn’t have pegged pants. Did you
ever see the old news reel when they had pegged pants? Their suits were pegged.
That means they were almost skin tight.
But I did like some of their songs.
I really wasn’t too excited about them.
I was probably too old already at that time. I was already about 28.
What about television.
What shows do you remember? What
impact did TV have on 60’s society?
Well right, and there were a lot of family shows.
What were some of those shows? Did
Happy Days start in the 60’s? I
really don’t know. Trying to
figure out what some of those shows were during the 60’s.
Mission Impossible, I really don’t know exactly what shows. I know I watched TV, but I really watched mostly sports. I
was into football. I watched golf a
lot, and in the evenings I don’t think I watched too much because you had to
work. I got up in the morning,
worked, I got home, was tired and went to bed.
I watched sports, and that was one thing I did watch.
Still to this day I like football mostly, and I like the Badgers.
Who were your sports heroes of the 1960’s?
Probably Gale Sayers he was a half back for the Bears, Mike
Dicka he was there coach eventually. I
was, in the early 60’s a Bear fan, and I really didn’t like the Packers
until after Vince Lombardi left. I
became a Packer fan when Vince left and died.
He was their coach and got them five championships back in the early
60’s. I remember watching them
and hardly anybody could beat the Packers.
I was a Bears fan, and he would always beat the Bears.
Gale Sayers, Mike Dikta and Dick Butkus, they were my heroes at that
time.
Do you remember any games or activities that we associate
with the 1960’s?
Games or activities, well I don’t know what would that
relate to. We played cards a lot.
Back at that time you used to visit more with your neighbors, and I can
remember living in Manitowoc and we would come up to my Grandpa’s to
Heather’s grandpa that lived in Hatley. We
would always have cards games. We
played sheep head with the neighbors. One
thing we would like is to drink a few beers and play cards for a pot of ten to
fifteen cents. That was what we
did, play cards.
What do you remember about Martin Luther King?
I can remember a lot of him. Seeing him on TV and news real listening to him give his
speeches I can remember just before he was assassinated he went to Memphis,
Tennessee, and was fighting for higher wages and more rights for the garbage
men. In the big cities all the
black people were under paid and they hardly had any rights.
He was nonviolent; he advocated nonviolence. He didn’t believe in that
radical left wing group that became militant.
I’m trying to think of the name of some; the name Rap Brown was one of
them. I can’t remember what they
called themselves at that time. He
was nonviolent. I thought he carried himself with dignity.
What other civil rights leaders do you remember?
Or organizations?
Well probably after MLK was assassinated, I don’t think
anybody would stand out today, I think too many are in it for a living.
Jesse Jackson and others don’t ever want to see racial tension.
Too many of them run around and talk about how everything’s unfair and
they’re living the high life. So, I don’t have much respect for the crowd
like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or any of those guys right now. They’re
nothing but charlatans. Of course, that’s my opinion.
Can you reflect on any of the following events in the
movement? Sit-ins, freedom rides,
March on Washington?
I can remember seeing it, but I don’t have any personal
experiences. At that time I don’t
believe there was one black person living in Manitowoc.
No, they were all down towards Milwaukee, so I didn’t have any personal
contact. I just remember
seeing it on TV and heard on the news reel.
At that time if you went to a movie they always had a news reel. They
would condense all the news for about a week or a month before and always show
that before the movie, so you would see all that before you seen the movie.
They always had what they would call news reel, and I always liked
watching that and it showed all that stuff.
It’s kind of hard to relate if you’re not living in that area. You knew about it and was aware of it, you knew it was taking
place, what you saw and heard. You would probably think, well that’s too bad,
but you really couldn’t empathize with them cause you weren’t living with
them.
Do you know anything about the Black Panthers or race
riots?
Yeah, well the Black Panthers was one of the groups I was
trying to remember when I was talking about Martin Luther King.
They were more militant. Their
philosophy was they were going to change things by any means.
They were going to change things for the black person by any means.
In other words violence, terrorism, whatever.
It didn’t matter. You really don’t change things going about it that
way. You will never change any
thing, for the better, but that was their philosophy, and I didn’t really
agree with that.
How do you personally feel about integration of blacks and
whites during the 1960’s?
It was bound to happen. I have no negative opinion about it
at all. I really can’t say I’m
prejudiced. I mean if a white guy
hit me up side the head I would be mad at him just like if a black guy hit me up
side the head. I suppose it’s a
good thing. We have people now of color living in our own city of Wausau.
Many of them are nice, but it’s always one or two of them that are the
bad apples that are criminals that created problems for the ones that are here
living a life and trying to make a goal of it and raise their families.
So I’m glad it happened because, like I said before when I was in the
army down south, I saw restrooms labeled colored only, drinking fountains, white
and colored. I couldn’t
understand what that was when I was a boy growing up.
I had no knowledge of anything like that till I got in the army.
I’m glad it’s not like that anymore.
Race relations have come a long way, but will probably never be
completely wiped out. If
somebody’s different than you, it’s hard to relate to; it’s different, and
you may always have a prejudice you don’t know you have.
Were you aware of the Space Race between the U.S. and the
Soviet Union during the 60’s?
Yes I was. I
can remember when president Kennedy was instituted, he said, “We will put a
man on the moon!” I know at that
time the Russians and the Americans were having a race.
I think that the politicians thought that being the first ones up in
space could also attach it to some kind of military purpose.
The Russians beat us and I can remember when it was going on.
It took a lot of the money; maybe some of the taxes started to increase
in that time. It took a lot of
money to institute that and keep it going over the years.
I can remember when the first man was on the moon.
I believe we Americans were the first ones on the moon.
I believe it was Neil Armstrong, but maybe I’m wrong.
I know was he was an astronaut. I
was aware of it, sure was.
What can you tell me about the Space Program?
Do you remember any of the astronauts and what they accomplished?
I can remember walking on the moon and I remember a few
tragedies we had. Was it the
Columbia space shuttle that blew up? We
lost seven of them. Do you remember
that? That could be about ten to
twelve years already ago already. We
launched seven astronauts and got up, I don’t know how high, and it blew up.
That was live on TV and it just blew up and desinagrated and seven people
died. One was a teacher that could be ten, fifteen years ago already.
Then I remember when we lost three astronauts on the ground a space
shuttle fire broke out. They died right off the ground; they weren’t even up
in space. One of them was Vergal
Grisum, I think his name was. I
remember that and right now you don’t hear too much with the space shuttle and
astronauts. Of course, you had that
orbiting space station. Periodically
people go up and come down. A
Russian just came back after about a year.
They just brought him back here. You
hear about satellites being launched and we have a lot of satellites up in
space.
Did you watch the landing of the Man on the Moon in 1969?
What did you think of that?
Yeah I did, I don’t know if they had live television at
that time or if it was the news. I
can remember his famous words, “ One small step for man, and one giant leap
for man kind.” When he jumped out
of the ship, set his foot on the moon. Yeah,
I remember that, and he was kind of bouncing cause there’s no gravity on the
moon.
Was the Space Race worth it?
Well, I kind of think so because at that time there was a
cold war going on and there were the Dooms Day people saying that there was
going to be a nuclear war. President
Reagan was trying to negotiate a deduction in nuclear weapons with the Russians.
I think it resulted in the Russians going bankrupt because they were
determined to keep up with us. They
spent so much money on that they couldn’t keep up financially and their whole
country went almost down the tubes. They
were so afraid of star wars. Ragan
told them he was going to put star wars up.
The star wars put up was satellite in the space that could shot down any
missiles that the Russians shot at us. Whether
it was true or just a theory, that’s what I think brought the downfall of
communism and the iron curtain. We are learning things all the time, so it was a
good thing. It cost a lot of money,
but I guess it was a good thing.
What new technologies were made available during the 60’s
color TV, cassettes, and 8 tracks, LPs?
Yeah there was a lot of that stuff, but I don’t remember
when it all started. I remember the
first colored TV, radio TV, I don’t know if there was any inventions.
I would say after the 60’s the last twenty years technology has really
advanced. If you look at the
computers and all that stuff.
Do you remember the Bay of Pigs Incident?
What happened?
I don’t remember it happening, but I know what happened.
Sure, Kennedy the president, and there was a lot of exiled Cubans when
Castro came to power. He became
nothing more than what all these world leaders do in their country.
They become nothing but a dictator and they take away human rights, so a
lot of the exiles wanted to over throw Castro.
We, Kennedy, was leery to get involved, but he did give them the go ahead
and did give them some support but he didn’t give them enough military support. They
were slaughtered. Castro won, and he’s in power to this day.
That was one thing Kennedy didn’t do right, was the Bay of Pigs.
What about the Cuban Missile Crisis?
That he did right. Didn’t
I touch base on that before? That he did the right thing because he stood up to
Khrushchev, and he didn’t back down. He made them take the missiles out of
Cuba. The Russians were putting up
missile bases in Cuba, and that’s how that came about.
Kennedy put up a naval blockade and said if you don’t take the missiles
out, there could be war. Finally, the Russians backed down and took the missiles out
of Cuba.
Did you practice any drills for possible atomic attacks?
Yeah we used to; do you mean as a civilian?
No, I never did as a civilian, just what they showed on TV where people
were in the bomb shelters and storing water.
I just never paid any attention and never did any thing.
Do you remember the Berlin Wall going up? What were your
feelings about that?
I remember that too. I’m
trying to think. I don’t know
exactly when it went up. I don’t
know if it was up when I was over there? Can’t
remember. I was in Germany in 1959
and 1960. I don’t know what year the Berlin Wall went up. Many East Germans
were trying to escape to the west. A
lot of them did and were killed trying to. That’s another thing you can credit to Ronald Reagan: the
collapse of the Berlin Wall.
Did you support the War in Vietnam? Why or Why not?
That’s a really tough question. I support my country. A
lot of time countries make wrong decisions; bad decisions and you are getting
into something you don’t realize is bad.
Even though it may get worse, I did support it all the way.
I did not agree with the protest, draft dodgers, or any of that that was
going on. I supported my president,
and most of all it’s demoralizing to the boys and ladies, women that were in
the war, fighting the war. It’s
encouraging to the enemy. Ho Chi
Minh almost conceded the war until Jane Fonda went over there, and all these
radicals were shown on TV protesting. Ho
Chi Minh then said we were defeated, and when he seen all that going on he said
we’ll hang on longer and the American people will win the war for us. That’s what happened.
The American people protested so much that the politicians gave in, and
we lost it.
Do you have an opinion about Nixon’s Vietnam policies?
What about the Cambodia Invasion?
Well I don’t remember much about it.
I know Nixon’s policy was to get us out of the war. He was going to get
us out of the war, he eventually did. What
has come to light is that a lot of prisoners never came home, and there were
lots of books written that they believed about what 1000 of 5000 were
unaccounted for. They think a lot
were sent to Russia and lived in prison over there and died.
Prisoners were alive that didn’t come home in the exchange when the war
was ended. It was a hard thing.
He inherited the war from Johnson.
President Johnson had built it up so bad and they didn’t let the
military men run the war, and it’s a hard call.
He wanted to end the war. He
did, but we lost.
Oral
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