We want to start out by saying that we are doing a book
about the Hmong. We want to give
the story of the Hmong from when they first came into Wausau continued into now.
The controversies and the good things are issues that we want to reveal
in this book.
What is your name?
My name is Lynne Santangello.
Do you have any children? If yes, how many?
Yes, I have three children that are all grown-up.
What are your hobbies?
I enjoy
reading, walking, swimming, and learning about different cultures.
Can you tell us a little bit about what you did for a
living?
Well, I suppose you want me to tell you how I got involved
with the refugees. I was a Peace
Corp volunteer back in the 1960’s, so I was kind of use to living in another
country and being involved with other cultures.
When the Hmong first came into Wausau, I was a homemaker and I only
taught swimming lessons to little children as a part-time job.
Our church wasn’t asked to, this is back in the time where there were
very few Hmong here, to take refugees in and resettle them.
Our church wasn’t asked right away in the beginning, when the first
people came in 1975, but in the end of 1979, a young man who was employed by
Lutheran Social Services, where Lutheran immigration worked at the time, came to
our church and asked if we would sponsor his cousin’s family, and so I got
involved in the original committee to do that and when the family arrived in
1980 it kind of ended up that I was more comfortable working in that situation,
where we couldn’t talk to each other, I kind of became a lead worker in that
and I got involved in a city-wide committee, where people from a lot of
different congregations in different areas, like health departments and social
services would get together to kind of brainstorm about what they were doing, so
they could get better and so I got involved in that. Then, in 1984, I ended up
getting hired by Lutheran Social Services and started working in resettlement
and eventually I became the resettlement director for Lutheran Social Services
of Wisconsin and upper Michigan, so I was responsible for that and beyond the
Wausau area. When resettlement stopped before this last group came, or
recently there wasn’t anybody resettling in Wausau anymore, the only people
were refugees from Eastern Europe and Africa and other places were being settled
in the southern part of the state. So,
rather than move to Milwaukee and keep that position, I left LSS (Lutheran
Social Services,) and someone else took that over in the Milwaukee office and
then I was hired by the school district to work at East, and West High Schools
and it was kind of like support for teens from a refugee background.
What did you like about your job?
Well, I always enjoyed learning about different cultures
and I liked being in a position where I could help people figure out what to do
about their problems.
Did you gain any experiences from your job?
Oh, yeah sure, I certainly feel that I have learned a lot
about the Hmong culture, but you can never get completely inside another
culture. You can never understand it completely but by working with a lot of
different people as my co-workers and a lot of people that I was serving, like
customers or students, I’ve talked to people of a lot of certain ages and
different perspectives and I can really appreciate the diversity of the Hmong
experience. The people who came from traditional backgrounds, or people who have
practiced traditional religions, Christians, all sorts of different ways people
decided on how to adapt, because when two cultures come together, everybody
decides what they want to keep from the old and from the new, and we don’t all
make the same decisions, and sometimes kids and their parents don’t make the
same decisions about what is important, like what’s important to keep and
what’s important to get along, it’s just very interesting watching that
whole process and sometimes I was able to give a little advice that was helpful
and to help people understand things that maybe they didn’t understand before.
How did you feel about the Hmongs coming into
America?
I think that it has been great. I mean, I’m sorry that there was a war, but I think that there is something that some people just
don’t understand, like when there is a war, it changes things forever and if
people wait and clean up all the messes that they make in one war before they
start another one, they’d never start another one, because it has changed the
history of the Hmong people forever. It’s changed the history of this country
forever, and there is a lot of pain, but good things can even come out of the
bad things, like you girls are going to have the opportunity that you probably
would’ve never had by being here, but you and your family have also lost
things too. I think that Wausau has
become much richer. When we first moved to Wausau in 1969, we had an adopted
daughter because we’ve been in the Peace Corp in South America and our little
girl probably had the darkest skin of anyone here and I think that by the time
she was in Junior High in high school that it began to change and I think that
it has been much better because of that change. Now the community has more people of African American
background, Hispanic backgrounds, which in a way takes a little pressure of the
Hmongs because they aren’t the newest group anymore, but that also makes the
community a richer place because it’s more like the rest of the world.
People growing up here are going to leave Wausau, like if you grow up in
a community that has everybody looking alike, when you go to work in a big city
in some other part of the country, you aren’t prepared, but by growing up in a
community that is becoming more diverse, you can be ready for anything because
you know how to get along with all kinds of people.
What are the different steps you had to take in
organizing or preparing for when the Hmong first came?
Well, when our church was asked to sponsor in the
beginning, it may have been a family that didn’t have any relatives here, so
you know you had to find an apartment for them, find some place for them to
live, furnish it, get clothing, all these sorts of things and a lot of it you
were kind of guessing because you didn’t know if the people were smaller than
you, or you didn’t know how big they were going to be. You weren’t sure what
season they were arriving in, you were hoping they’d come in a couple of
months. I remember the first
apartment that we furnished and there was a one year old, and a kid who was not
quite two and one who was not quite one, and there were like six kids. We thought
when we furnished that apartment, “Oh we got a bed for everybody, two
hi-chairs,” but they didn’t even use half the stuff!
Then everybody was sleeping in a couple of beds and they never put the
kids in the hi-chairs, and we put all this stuff in the apartment that wasn’t
really necessary, but we learned by experience that too much stuff is almost
overwhelming! Of course, there was making sure that people got connected with
the health department with their medical appointments and a lot of times there
were a lot of medical concerns. Back
in the early days not understanding much about the culture or about the
language at all was a problem in not having proper interpreters. You could
imagine maybe a woman coming who was pregnant in the early days and not having
anybody really who can inadequately interpret, maybe the only person in town who
could interpret would probably only be a man and this would be a traditional
woman with no experience in this country. Imagine how scary it would have been
for her to go through that. The
whole business about filling out paperwork and it was just so complicated back
then when there were no social workers, and then you had to explain things to
neighbors and you had to explain all the things about taking care of the house
that people didn’t know. Later on when the relatives were sponsoring them they
could explain to them, like putting milk in the refrigerator and not in the
cupboard, you know, things like that. It was pretty hard to explain to them.
Do you have any favorite memories about your job?
There are just so many good memories. I think that just
seeing people make progress and anytime anybody got a job because when the
majority of the people were coming, it was a very difficult economic time and
that caused a lot of conflict because refugees don’t have a choice about when
they come, because they have to leave where they are and they have to come when
they are given an opportunity to come, even if there aren’t jobs in the
community. So in the beginning it was just a triumph when anybody got a job
because there might have been 200 people who wanted the job.
Also seeing people buying their own homes, and seeing young people going
to college and being successful and coming back and being professionals and
that’s great, great to see.
What do you think the majority of the Americans felt
when the Hmongs came to Wausau?
I think that the first thought for a lot of people was
sympathy, except for some people who had had bad memories of the fights against
the Vietnamese. I think that as
people began to see that this just wasn’t a few people, it was a lot of people
that was coming in at a bad economic time. People don’t always understand that
when more people come into a community, the pie of what there is, like if you
think of all the resources and everything, just because someone else gets
something, it doesn’t mean that you are going to get less, it’s not that
they are taking away from you, because when a lot of people come in they are
also putting their things into that pie too. They are adding their labor, even
in the time when people weren’t getting jobs easily, more government
assistance was coming into the community from Federal State sources as well as
people having needs, and all the costs wasn’t being used by the Wausau
community. So, they were getting help that we weren’t aware of, and just
because a Hmong family was getting assistance it doesn’t mean that an American
family wasn’t getting assistance too. So
I think that that was the hardest time, when the economic times got a little
better and more people got employed and starting buying their own homes, I think
that that really improved. So when
that last group that just recently came, the community responded in a better way
because their was a lot of outpouring because they realized, every groups have
troubles when they first come and it will get better.
In the old days if you were coming from Europe and you were a farmer and
you came as an immigrant, life here, you didn’t need different skills than you
had in Europe because you could get free land and just farm, but immigrants now
are from extremely different backgrounds and have it a lot harder, so the kind
of help they need is different. People
forget that often it took generations for people to become fluent in English and
they think that people who have never tried to learn a foreign language think,
learn English or learn it before you come, you know it takes years for an adult
to learn a language!
We know that there are certain people who don’t like
change and when the Hmongs came they probably didn’t like that either, why do
you think they felt this way?
Well, I talked about that a little bit. They thought that there would be less for them and they didn’t realize that the Hmong did have
contributions to the community or the advantages that would come their way.
Change is hard, especially when it comes suddenly, for anybody, even for
you, young, flexible people. Change
could be difficult for you if there was a change in your family or a move to a
different place, it would be hard for you.
There’s an old saying that goes: by the yard changes hard, by the inch
it’s a synch. So, if it comes slowly and it kind of creeps up on people, they
can adapt to it.
A while ago we did this interview with a Hmong man and he
had said that he heard stories about bizarre things Americans would do to the
Hmong refugees once they came to America. Now
what he heard was indeed a stereotype. So that leads to our next question. Did you hear any stereotypes about the Hmongs?
Let’s see, well yes of course, there were always
the rumors that if your pet ran away before the Hmong family knew next door, you
would assume the pet ran away but the next door neighbors would assume that the
Hmong people ate it! We fought
rumors like that when I worked at LSS all the time, because you would hear
complaints and then I would have to call the police department, then they would
say, “No, it’s not true that they found three Hmong men stuffing their
trucks with ducks at Oak Island!” But people believe what they want to
believe. Everybody has stereotypes
and you kind of tend to collect information that fits your stereotype, for
example if you had a stereotype that a certain group of people were lazy, you
might walk by ten, twenty people that were doing their own business and not
really notice them, but if you see one man, leaning up against the lamp post,
doing nothing but smoking a cigarette, that’s the guy you remember because
that fits your stereotype. People
will believe what a neighbor says. They’ll believe a rumor before they’ll
believe the facts. If it comes from
a friend or a neighbor, or if a friend says, “Well, my cousin saw this..” or
“My boyfriend's mother-in-law lived next door to…” and this happened, people
will believe that rather than the facts. I’m
sure your parents believe some things like that or even you do!
If you estimated all the hours that you spent working in
this job, what would your estimate be?
Well, I worked for four years a volunteer, over twenty
years as a full-time worker, but I was doing volunteer stuff at the same time
and I’m still involved with it. Well,
you don’t count the times that you have spent with Hmong friends, that
doesn’t count as work. It has
been a really big part of my life, I guess for more than a third of my life and
I’m really old, so, that’s a lot of life!
How much longer do you think that you’ll continue
doing this?
As long as I’m around here. I guess I know so many Hmong
people and have so many friends and do things socially, so I don’t think
I’ll stop unless I leave Wausau and go to Alaska or something!
What do you think makes it so hard for someone to
learn how to adapt to a new country?
Well, your parents could probably answer that question
better than I could! I think it depends, but in the Hmong situation, it was like
going to a different century as far as technology, ideas, opportunities and what
kinds of skills you need for work, and the languages are totally unrelated which
makes it so much more difficult then coming from German or French or Norwegian
to English. The fact that the
cultures were quite different, although there are some very important basic
values that are important: the importance of family, the importance of
hard-work, the value of religion whether it be Christianity or traditional
religion, religion is important to Hmong people and different backgrounds,
honesty and serving the community, that helped the Hmong people fit it, but
there are also lots and lots of differences too.
Was it hard for you to teach the Hmong students at Wausau
West and Wausau East as you were helping them?
Well, I wasn’t a teacher, I was kind of like a person
that did things that counselors would do and I would spend more time with
individuals because they had caseloads of students. At that point, most of the kids knew English very well except
for the very newest arrivals so it wasn’t a matter of language very much, we
also worked with kids who were having conflicts with family or a lot of times it
was kids who were giving up on school. Sometimes
it was hard, sometimes it wasn’t, but I really enjoyed it.
I would’ve continued with that job except that the funding for that
position ran out by the time my husband was retiring so I decided I would retire
too. There are so many young Hmong
professionals that are probably better qualified for that position, so I wanted
to get out of the way.
Have you ever been to Thailand?
No, I’ve never been to Thailand, never been to Laos.
Well, would you go if you had the opportunity to?
Yes, but if I could have a ticket to go to any place, it
probably wouldn’t be the first place I would go right now because my husband
is from Italian background and he really wants to go there because he still has
some relatives living there. That would probably be the first place I would go.
I think that I would be more interested in going to Laos than Thailand.
If something could have been done for you to make your
job easier, what would you want it to be?
Thinking back to the time where there was a lot of conflict
and a lot of hard feelings, I guess if people would’ve listened to each other
better and would’ve been more sympathetic.
You know it was hard because we would get nasty phone calls and hate
mail, I didn’t like my kids answering the phone and have some people yelling
at them, saying bad words.
Was it the Hmongs who were doing that?
NO! It was
those people who weren’t happy with the resettlement process and it was just a
few people, but you know they could make life pretty miserable for you and I wish
that people would just listen to each other and try to understand one another,
that would’ve made it easier. Also,
there are a few Hmong elders who should’ve listened a little more too and
should’ve tried to be a little more understanding, but you always wish that
there was more funding available or bilingual aids or just anything that could
make the whole process easier, like ways to help people reconcile, eastern and
western medicine, like people not trusting doctors and waiting until the cancer
was too gone and then you die in the hospital and you blame the hospital for
killing you! Anything can help, but
there's always that kind of stuff.
Do you think that there are any negative things or
traditions that the Hmong people brought with them to America?
There were things that made it more diffucult, like things
about the Hmong culture that made it harder were the roles of men and women.
Maybe the tradition of early marriage. Now, I’m imagining that your
folks are very supportive of your education, but that wasn’t the case years
ago. I think the first two girls I
remember graduating from High School in Marathon County, had like four kids by
the time they graduated, they were very fortunate to even have that opportunity
to get through High School. That
was kind of hard and I know that the rules of men and women in this country are
relatively new, and that many of the Hmong families that came in found it really
hard to adjust to, and many Americans found it difficult to understand.
Since we are talking about the Hmong culture, what do
you think of polygamy?
Well, it’s illegal!
I’m well aware of the fact that, well, I guess the ideas of what
marriage is, is different in both of the cultures, like here marriage is a legal
and religious thing and in the Hmong culture it’s a little bit different.
I could understand why people who had had more than one wife when they
were in Thailand, which they had technically divorced before they came over to
the states, would want to get back together with their spouse.
It is harder for me to be understanding for the men who want a second or
third wife at the same time in this country, maybe they should restrain
themselves or divorce one before they get another one, but that’s just my
feeling because in my experience it did make it difficult for the kids, like in
some ways they had to live a lie and not always tell the truth in their
situations and they often lacked some economic opportunities, and maybe they
didn’t get as much attention from the dad as they should get or maybe the kids
from the second or third wives didn’t feel that like they were treated as well
as from the kids from the first wife, so I think it made it harder for them.
As you might know, Hmong families have a lot of kids,
why do you think that is so?
Well, in traditional societies from all over the world
people had a lot of kids, because you don’t know how many are going to survive
and you need to work. I think that it is really changing, because nowadays
it’s unusual to see a young married Hmong couple planning to have 10 or 12
kids because they are realizing that it is expensive to raise kids in this
country and it’s not an economic advantage to have a lot of kids like it was
before. If a family already has six
or seven kids before they come, what are they suppose to do?
Leave a few behind? So
that’s another one of those things, that we always say, “This will change,
give it time, remember look at your grandparents and how large their families
were.” In this country back then when the majority of the people
were farmers, it wasn’t all unusual to have eight kids in the family.
So, do you think it’s a good thing?
Well, kids are always good, I worried when people continued
to have kids when they weren’t employed, but I could understand it because
your attitude does not change as fast as the situation, you can quickly plunk me
down in the middle of Nigeria, you know, I would adapt somehow, but my attitude
wouldn’t change as fast as being transferred over there.
So you think it’s a good thing?
Well, no I think that it is changing and young couples are
starting to have smaller families and those people who already had larger
families when they came or already started a large family, when they grow up,
the kids probably won’t have large families because it isn’t as practical in
this country.
How do you think the Hmongs impacted this community,
is it negative or positive? Why?
Very positive, in my opinion, anytime a community becomes
diverse, that’s positive because you are going to have to learn how to get
along with different people. The
Hmong have found jobs and are very reliable workers. They tribute to the
community. They spend money in the community that benefits everybody. They
contribute new ideas and new perspectives.
Have you had any experiences with the Hmong culture;
like, have you been to a Hmong Grocery Store?
Oh yes, I go to Hmong stores often, I go to gatherings in
the Hmong culture, New Year Celebrations, Parties for new babies, but I have
never yet seen a shaman. I’ve talked to many of them, but I have never yet had
the opportunity to observe a shaman in action, and I would like to see that.
I think that that is a very sacred tradition to the
Hmong.
I know, so outsiders aren’t invited to that, but I’ve
talked to many shamans and it’s been very interesting because they are very
open and they explain things well, but I still want to see it in action!
If you can give any encouraging words to the young
people these days, what will it be?
DON'T GIVE UP!! Try
to understand your parents and I know that it is difficult, especially for
those parents who are still quite traditional, but you can make your own way,
and don’t give up either culture. Don’t give up on education, your
situation, the teens that I have talked to sometimes think that it’s only
because they are Hmong that they have these conflicts, but it’s normal, a
normal part of growing up, like separating from your parents, all teenagers have
conflicts with their parents and sometimes in cross cultural situations it’s
even more difficult, but it can be resolved and you can get through it.
What do you think about the Hmong ceremonies, are
they weird to you?
Not me! I
think that it is always interesting, very interesting.
Any time you approach a different culture with respect it is very
interesting.
What do you do at these ceremonies?
I usually just observe and I meet people I know and I’ve
been to many Hmong funerals and I just listen and watch, and people talk to me
and I talk to them. I go to the New
Year’s and find my old friends, just like you do. It doesn’t bother me if I don’t understand what’s going
on, but sometimes someone comes and explains but if they don’t that’s okay
too!
Have you gotten really involved in the ceremonies?
It depends on what it is, if it’s a funeral and it’s
someone I know, I go and greet the family members and I go up to the person.
Just like if I went to an American funeral, you talk to people and
express your sorrow.
I
don’t know if you can answer this question, but do you think that some of the
young Hmongs today are losing sense of their culture?
Some of them are, some of them are kind of blocking it out
and are not listening. I think that that caused a lot of conflicts with parents
too because I have heard parents complain that their kids don’t know the
language and their kids don’t know the traditions, but if the parents don’t
work on teaching the language and don’t work on the traditions, but a lot of
parents are busy working long hours, sometimes more than one job, a lot of
families don’t have time to sit down to eat together, they don’t talk
together. In the Hmong culture it
depends on oral traditions and passing things, back in Laos and Thailand, when
it got dark, you sit around a fire and tell stories and listen and now as soon
as you get home you plop on the couch and watch television and the computer goes
on, so parents and kids don’t talk to each other.
If you’re not really involved in long conversations and people don’t
correct you when you make mistakes in the language, you aren’t going to learn
the language well; you’re just learning the words for food and some other
things like that. If no one goes over the names of your family going back
twenty generations until you memorize them, you won’t learn them, because
it’s not programmed in your brain. I
think that it takes a lot of effort from the parents and cooperation from the
kids to really hold the culture because the surrounding culture is so strong and
it comes into the home through the television.
I don’t know if this is a fair question, but do you
think the Hmongs have to work harder because a lot of them don’t know the
language?
Are you talking about adults? Well, the kinds of jobs that are open to them might be more
difficult physically and those kinds of jobs that are open to them might not pay
as well because they are not highly skilled jobs so they might have to take more
than one job or work longer hours. If
you have a college degree and work in an office for eight hours it’s a lot
easier physically though it might be demanding mentally than working in a
factory for 10 hours and then going to work for a cleaning company afterwards to
make more money.
Do you have any last words?
No I don’t think so.
Well, we are really glad that you came because we
learned a lot!!
Oral
History Project 
